[Edited communication, for better understanding of people’s rage in Afganistan]
Ahmad,
Anyway, this is indeed another good topic to discuss, as most non-Muslim’s, I feel, don’t understand why this turns into bloodshed. Certainly, nobody wants to see a Bible or Quran or any other religious text, or heck, for that matter, any book whatsoever burned. That’s just silly, unnecessary, un-called-for, etc. But, it happens – I remember the stories of my neighbor when I moved to Warrenville. She was much older, and was in Germany when Hitler was burning books, and had some very dreadful stories about that. For me, religious texts are simply human’s manifestations, or creations by humans, NOT the Deity, so when one destroys that book, they are simply destroying a creation of a human. Distasteful, yes, but an affront against the Almighty, no. So, it would never cause me to ever seek the destruction of another human being for this transgression, as it is simply destroying a human creation, NOT the belief, teachings, or word(s) of God.
Maybe the PPT answered why Muslims would treat the Quran differently than say a Christian would treat the Bible, but since I couldn’t read it, I don’t know, so am asking for clarification. So my question is: What is it with the Quran, that if/when it is destroyed it can cause such violent reactions?
Hopefully I’m asking this in the proper fashion, with no affront intended – simply wanting to learn for myself what’s going on in the world. Thanks for your explanations!
Jim
Hi Jim,
Quran is different than any other book. It is not human authored.
Ahmad
What I’d like to know is how it is any different…. basically, humans have taken the original word, and printed it in a Quran. It is a thing that is produced by a human, a material entity so-to-speak, that given to no external forces, other than nature, would disintegrate all by itself anyway. So burning the Quran no different than the decay that all things exhibit…just the amount of time that Quran is around varies, but it is still a fallible thing, in that it will decay. However, the message, and meaning of the original word stands the test of time, NOT the medium that it is written on, which is fallible, just like any human….
This is also why I don’t care if someone burns the American flag. Stupid, yes, and makes my stomach turn, but, the ideal of America lives on, and is NOT in and of itself embodied in the material the flag is made of, much like any book, the message can and does survive, even if the material it was written on is destroyed.
This why I don’t understand the violence that erupts, and want to understand it better.
Take care,
Jim
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Ahmad,
In my brief review though, I didn’t see anywhere in it an answer to why the “book” and its destruction would cause riots and killings and other bad things to happen. I truly understand why people would be mad, as I too would be if someone burned a Bible, but it’s the next steps that have me drawing a blank. I gave you my reasoning below, that I believe these human produced books (Quran, Bible, War&Peace, you name the book), will cease to exist at some point in the future, regardless…burning is probably the quickest vehicle of destruction, but nature itself has a way of destroying that same book over time. Again, it’s not the book, but the message that needs to be revered and kept sacred – well, at least in my mind. So, why does it incite such violence?
I think the book burning gives an impression of intolerance that sort of feeds into our previous discussions – not that it is right or wrong, but that it is happening and is visible in the media for all to see. I think most Americans are scratching their heads as to why.
Thanks for helping me understand!
Jim
Hi Jim,
The ppt presentation objective was to quote from Quran verses to answer the most frequent question people in the US tend to ask. Which is “where is this book coming from and what is it about since all we see from its followers is nothing but bad and evil. “
Quran, in the mindset of most people, I encountered in the US and Canada, is that it is “another account, i.e. human writing” of God’s message similar to the Gospels. These friends and acquaintances see it as such, because they are familiar with the Gospel according to Mark, Thomas, Matthew and John, or the book of Mormons by Joseph Smith. Therefore, the Quran must be a similar thing but according to Mohammad to fit the Arabic speaking people.
This is not the case with the Quran.
Before going into why, which the ppt presentation should help in explaining to some extent, I hope, let me comment on the rage and conduct we saw from Afghans and others. As you said, there is nothing wrong with being angry to something revered and held high in the eyes and hearts of people. I feel very bad for disrespecting any culture’s values, beliefs, books, etc. That is not acceptable to me in any shape or form. Quran commands me to not disrespect/insult pagan gods so that pagans do not insult God out of ignorance.
Let’s look at the example you brought up, the American flag. It could be purchased for under $5 (made in China, probably) but embodies what this nation (USA) is all about; the country’s mind, sprit, soul, conscious, struggle, sacrifices of its people, contribution to civilization and values. Therefore, when we stand up in respect, it is for what it represents, not the $4.99 nylon sheet. When people overseas want to show their anger at the US, they stomp the flag, burn it to express what’s in their guts towards the US of frustration, hatred and to inflict any form of injury to the American people by disrespecting, and humiliating America’s symbol that they can put their hands on, the American flag (probably purchased there from China too). This is an act of those who are over powered, and incapable. However, burning the flag is in no way equal to bringing down the WTC. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have been in war with Al-Qaeda for the past 10 or more years. Nor the crusade had happened in the middle ages for what kings, at that time, believed that the holly land and sacred places have been defiled by the people back then at the Middle East (Muslims of course, viewed as infidels from their perspective). Now, when the case is the message from The Creator of the heaven and earth (regardless of whether people believe in Him/It or not… will talk about it) to all mankind, for their guidance and mercy, have be thrown in garbage, what would the situation be? Add to that, people in this area of the world, Afghanistan, have been in never ending wars for decades, looking at Americas as occupiers not liberators (because there is nothing to liberate them from…they live in no man’s land). So they would probably say, “Wars and we had no choice, occupation and we accepted, president imposed on top of our head and we said OK, add to that insulting the only thing left for us!” Off course they would explode.
As far as the conduct of people in Afghanistan and shooting themselves in the foot, it is not their first time to do so for a similar insult of religion. It is indicative of incapability of doing anything due to ignorance, lack of leadership, limited vision, and the list goes on and on and on. The least to say on the conduct it is not very civilized for the reasons mentioned, and their government performance is not up to its people’s expectations.
Ahmad
Thanks for the further explanations. I do think I understand a bit more about the differences, but still find it very hard to understand the violence. The news reports are saying that if a Quran is marked on, it is a HUGE offense, and supposedly these Qurans that were accidentally burned had already been marked/desecrated, so what does that say about the people who were reading them??? You’re probably totally right about the reasons for the public in general (ignorance, lack of leadership, hopelessness, etc), but one of the generals was spouting things that I would have thought he should have known better. Will keep studying what you sent so I have a better understanding of the Quran!
Jim
Jim,
GM…
We are learning together as friends and brothers.
For the violence, one need to put himself in the shoes of people, it is similar situation when people got fed up in the Middle East and revolted. Here is a link I received in an email response that describes the Afghans situation. It probably is worse than what you have seen in your mission to the Navajo nation.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30628.htm
I have heard about the writings in the Quran they said on TV, however, have not seen them. What was displayed were writings around the text, which typically happens with any commentary. It has inclined or parallel patterns, so it is more to a commentary than scribbling. I have not seen the hidden messages they talk about. Also, had it been messages to communicate between extremists, it should have been kept as an evidence to bring them to court. Further, would it be a deviation from the military job, if it erected itself as the guardian of the Quran in Afghans land? Would it be appropriate for the military personnel now to perform the role of the Azhar University in Egypt or the Higher Assembly of Islamic Research, or International Conference of Muslim Scholars do to guard and preserve the Quran, or other institutions to retire torn copies of it.
Ahmad
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A quick follow up on our discussion. For people who know Arabic, when you read or hear the Quran, you would immediately know it is not from the speech of people. It is neither like prose, nor poetry. It has music in it that attracts even those who don’t understand the language. As you might have read in the ppt presentation, none claimed its authorship, but God claimed He revealed it. It has admonition for Mohammad himself for things where he should opted for other judgment or approach.
Linguistically, Revelation is the quick, invisible transmission of information. In terms of God’s revelation, it comes in three forms. It could be either inspiration that comes in one’s hearts as when God inspired Moses’ mother to put him in a coffin and through him in the Nile to escape Pharaoh’s mandate to slaughter new born Israelites male, out of fear that a prophet will raise amongst them and Pharaoh’s end will be at his hand. Also, as God inspired bees to nest in trees and mountain, and travel for distances to make honey. Along this God has guided his creation to their natural disposition in this universe (check it out in the animal life for example). The second is behind a veil, as when God talked to Moses directly. Or through a messenger, such as sending archangel Gabriel with God messages to mankind as in the papers of Abraham, and Moses (Torah), Gospel of Jesus (not according to x, y and z), Psalms of David, and Quran of Mohammad, and others that we don’t know of. Note: also evil ones reveal to their followers with evil.
Quran, is defined as the inimitable God’s revelation (in words and in meaning), in Arabic (since God revealed other books to other prophets in their language), to prophet Mohammad (since there are revelations to other prophets), though angle Gabriel (so it is not a dream or inspiration, rather a message delivered by a messenger that could be witnessed in presence and/or in form), that is transmitted by masses of people that is not possible for them to gather all and agree to lie (called in Arabic Mutawater… translated as recurring), memorized by hearts, written in books (called Masahif, plural of Mushaf, translated as scripture), recited in prayer and for worship, and is used for challenge (that it is God’s word and Mohammad is His Prophet, rightfully and truthfully).
From before the time of Mohammad, Arabic language eloquence was the sign of ingenuity. It has been stable and mature for a prolonged period of time, as well as very flexible and rich to express ideas and feelings. Competitions were held in Mecca’s events and markets, and winning poems were hung on the drapes of the Kaaba (Cubical building raised by Abraham and son Ishmael. Was from time of Adam and came down due to Noah’s flood). The words of a speaker or a poet can bring a tribe up or down, and ignite wars in a tribal pride community.
At that time, where paganism was prevalent, Quran called them to believe in God alone and shun worshiping and seeking help from or putting hope or having fear from idols that does not benefit or harm, even itself. Hence, adjusting their minds to new concepts and perceptions in life and ideologies. Pagans where challenged to produce a book like it (Quran), ten chapter, a chapter, or a speech like it to prove that it is a fabricated and false message from God and Mohammad is not his prophet. They couldn’t. Sine that time, over 1400 years ago, the challenge is still open.
The challenge is in the core competency of people, it wont be fair to challenge a non Arabic-speaking people in a language they don’t even understand. The challenge is in other aspects, the structure of the book, the accuracy of information whether historical or scientific, and the integrity of the human systems frameworks it presents is today’s challenge which has not yet been well propagated.
With regards of decaying of book material over time, and that burning would be a similar thing. That is true, but even an over used book should be retired in the appropriate way to its content. In general, the book is guarded from alteration or disappearance (until time appointed). It is recorded in the hearts of millions, some of whom don’t understand the language, but memorize the whole book (approx. 600 pages) as young as few years old. As well as what you can think of as a recording media, not just paper.
Hope this helps….
Ahmad
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Please let me know if it is OK with you, if I could use some of the discussion for a post on why this rage.
Thanks
Ahmad
Yes, of course this discussion can be used, as I think we can all learn from each other.
I do have a far better understanding of the Quran, than I ever did before, so I do thank you for that. What keeps running through my head though, is how the priest I met on the Navajo Nation has worked to take his religion, and the spiritualness of the Navajo, and find common ground, recognizing that there are significant similarities between the “faiths – if I can call it that, for a lack of a better word”. They don’t concentrate on the differences, but utilize the common threads to form a bond. Each still practices their own traditions, but they come together, and work together for a common good. I also remember my grandfather trying to get the Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Mennonites, etc in my hometown to come together and have common services, as many of the goals shared by these religions have a common foundation of charity and goodness, etc.
This enlightenment is what I feel is missing from the discussion (not our discussion, but what is going on in the world). Each side/religion is polarized (much like our US Congress), looking at the differences, or not trying to understand the other side, that they get too focused on their own agenda and overlook the bigger picture. With a Billion Catholics, a Billion Muslims, a Billion Buddhists, a…..you get the point, with many, many, many common goals or ideals between them, why can’t more common ground be found? Without that common ground/understanding, I fear that these book burnings will continue to agitate. In this case, certainly sensitivity training on the Quran (much like you did for me) seems an easy thing to do for the military, so they don’t do something on accident again, and for them to understand they need to treat the Quran, much like the US flag – it needs to be taken care of properly (I don’t mean to compare the American Flag with the Quran literally, but I do know that if some military person saw a US flag in the trash, they would probably take it out of there, and dispose of it properly….if they understood that the Quran had the same sort of requirement….well, at least that is how my simple brain works…… At the same time, the Afghan leader should be calling for calmness, and trying to explain the accident. I don’t see him doing anything major to quell the unrest, and in fact the religious leaders there also seem to be stoking the flames.
If no compromises can be reached, then I fear that the gaps between the religions and countries/regions will continue to be a sore spot that does nothing to advance humankind.
Just some more .02 on my part. Hope it makes sense, and I do enjoy our discussions – makes me think!
Jim